1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 9 TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE 10 OF PROCEEDINGS RELATING TO HOUSE BILL 1034 11 TEXAS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 12 MARCH 20, 2007; APRIL 3, 2007 13 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS were transcribed by Leah 23 K. Osteen-Dow, Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for 24 the State of Texas, from an audio file provided by Mr. 25 Dean Cook, Esq. Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 2 1 (Beginning of audio.) 2 THE SPEAKER: The House Bill 1023 is left 3 as pending business before the Committee. 4 Chair lays out -- I need to do 1034 because 5 that's (inaudible) -- 6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. 7 THE SPEAKER: -- 1034 and recognizes 8 Representative Riddle to explain the bill. 9 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Thank you, Mr. 10 Chairman, and Members of the Committee. 11 I'm pleased to come before you today 12 with -- I know we all hear that a bill is just a simple 13 little bill, but I'll tell you, in this instance it is 14 true because this bill only has three words, less than 15 three words; but I -- I will say this: I think that 16 they're probably the most important words that we can 17 hear in -- in any bill. In HB 1034, those three words 18 are "state under God." It is in the Texas pledge. 19 Bottom line is this: Our Texas pledge is, 20 Honor the Texas flag. I pledge allegiance to thee, 21 Texas, one and indivisible. 22 House Bill 1034 simply adds the words 23 "under God" to it that would revise it to say, Honor the 24 Texas flag. I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one 25 state under God and indivisible. Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 3 1 It makes our state pledge consistent with 2 our national pledge, which added those words "under God" 3 in 1954. 4 I've been asked a lot about this bill and 5 why I would do this. I think words are very important 6 and I think that -- and for a long time I've been feeling 7 like there was something missing out of our state pledge 8 because it wasn't consistent with our national pledge and 9 it did leave the fact that we are one state under God 10 out; and I felt like that we needed to clarify that our 11 nation is, indeed, one nation under God and so is our 12 state. 13 I believe that our state, even when it was 14 its own nation, was founded on the belief that we should 15 have the right to acknowledge God. 16 The seventh page of the Texas Declaration 17 of Independence says that Mexico, quote, denies us the 18 right of worshipping the Almighty according to the 19 dictates of our own conscience by the support of a 20 national religion calculated to promote the temporal 21 interest of its human functionaries rather than the glory 22 of the true and living God, end quote. 23 Our own Constitution, in the very first 24 article, says all men have a natural and -- have a 25 natural right to worship Almighty God according to the Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 4 1 dictates of their own conscience. 2 Those concepts are very important. As a 3 matter of fact, they are the foundation, the very 4 foundation of our nation. They were truly the very 5 foundation of our state as a nation, and it's the very 6 foundation of our state as a state. 7 Now, I know that there are some who would 8 say that we cannot have the words "under God" in our 9 pledge, but I do believe that the -- we need to look back 10 at the intention of our founding fathers, and I think 11 that is consistent with -- with the -- with our founding 12 fathers and the original intent of -- of where we were 13 going. 14 As a Christian, I think that it's 15 important, but let me tell you, I would strongly object 16 to making Christianity a national religion. That's not 17 what this is trying to do, because we have many 18 religions. We have Jews, we have Christians that our -- 19 and other religions, that our Judeo-Christian ethic is, 20 in fact, our foundation. 21 The acknowledgement of God in our pledge is 22 a far cry from trying to have an endorsement of any 23 specific religion. That is not what we're trying to do, 24 and I want to make that very clear. Rather, it is a 25 reminder of one of the very reasons that Texas became a Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 5 1 nation and why we are joined together and became a part 2 of -- of the Union as a state. 3 For such a simple bill as this, I think 4 I've probably said a little bit too much already, because 5 this is just a few words. So, Mr. Chairman, I'm willing 6 to accept any questions, and after the questions I 7 reserve my right to close. 8 THE SPEAKER: All right. Any questions, 9 Members? Representative Phillips? 10 REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: I don't -- you 11 may not be the one. I don't -- is there -- do we have a 12 resource witness here from any entity related to -- do we 13 have any resource witnesses? 14 THE SPEAKER: Yes, we do. No, we don't. 15 No, we don't have a resource -- 16 REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: Because one of 17 the questions that I've always had is, people asked when 18 we started requiring this, one and indivisible, because 19 everybody says that we can divide the state into four 20 different parts. And so I just wonder if we could settle 21 that once and for all here today. 22 THE SPEAKER: You mean about the end of the 23 deal -- 24 REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: Everybody wants 25 to know why is it one and indivisible, because they say Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 6 1 when we joined -- 2 THE SPEAKER: Indivisible by act of the 3 legislature -- I mean it's divisible by act of the 4 legislature. 5 REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: Our legislature 6 or the national legislature? 7 THE SPEAKER: When we went in -- when the 8 treaty -- when the United -- when Texas entered the 9 United States, as part of that treaty a lot of things 10 happened. The fact that we got -- counted the distance 11 in the ocean, our boundaries, in leagues instead of 12 miles, which benefited us greatly with oil and gas, but 13 also we could divide up into five states. 14 REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: Five, not four. 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: If -- 16 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Uh-huh. 17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: -- they ever -- 18 THE SPEAKER: If we wanted to. 19 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: -- succeed if they 20 ever chose to divide us into five states. 21 THE SPEAKER: I think you could succeed if 22 you wanted to. 23 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Call Larry Oaks 24 (phonetic). 25 THE SPEAKER: Larry Oaks is here. We've Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 7 1 got a resource. Bring Larry out. 2 REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: Because I have 3 more questions about that. So, I mean, if we're going to 4 change it, if it's not correct, I mean, let's just -- 5 THE SPEAKER: Well, that's what I had 6 mentioned, too, so -- 7 REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: Let's get the 8 whole pledge -- whole pledge redone. 9 THE SPEAKER: Well, let's -- let's call up 10 the resource and then see if we can get (inaudible) on 11 that, and then we'll come back. 12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay. 13 THE SPEAKER: All right. The Chair calls 14 Larry Oaks. 15 And you can fill out one of those and give 16 it to us. Please state your name and -- 17 MR. OAKS: Mr. Chairman, Members of the 18 Committee, I'm Larry Oaks, executive director of the 19 Texas Historical Commission and also a descendant of 20 Henry Clay, who in 1850 helped pass the 1850 Compromise, 21 which settled the boundaries of Texas. 22 I just like it because we had part of 23 Montana and -- 24 THE SPEAKER: Yeah. Oh, yeah. 25 MR. OAKS: -- Wyoming at that time and we Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 8 1 could go skiing -- 2 THE SPEAKER: Colorado and Mexico. 3 MR. OAKS: -- in Texas. 4 THE SPEAKER: Everything. 5 MR. OAKS: But the State was given the 6 authority to divide into five states if it ever wanted to 7 do such. 8 But we're so proud of our current state. I 9 think anyone would fight for indivisible, not two, not 10 three, not four, not five. 11 THE SPEAKER: So you would say, then, we 12 can do it if the legislature -- you know, we pass the law 13 to do it, we could divide up and -- 14 MR. OAKS: Yeah. 15 THE SPEAKER: But -- 16 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: But not be forced to 17 do it. 18 MR. OAKS: Yeah, would be at your -- the 19 State's initiation to divide. 20 THE SPEAKER: And so it's indivisible 21 except by action of the legislature. 22 MR. OAKS: Correct. 23 REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: So -- but is it 24 the legislature, or does it have to be by Constitution? 25 Do you know? Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 9 1 MR. OAKS: Well, the Congress allowed it 2 when they ratified the compromise of 1850 and settled all 3 the boundaries. We'd have to go and do some research to 4 see exactly how one would do it. 5 REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: So technically we 6 are -- we are divisible? 7 THE SPEAKER: Well, (inaudible) that 8 question. I think -- I'm not sure yet, but I think we 9 are closer to that conclusion. 10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Were the boundaries 11 predetermined on the five separate states? 12 MR. OAKS: Well, if you -- no, the 13 boundaries that were changed were, in fact -- there were 14 disputes at almost all the boundaries of Texas. And at 15 that point, we -- Texas claimed all the way to the Rio 16 Grande River at Santa Fe. 17 So the state included currently what is 18 half of New Mexico. If you've seen those maps that are 19 all over the Capitol that have the long appendage headed 20 north, then it went through -- 21 THE SPEAKER: We call it ski country. 22 MR. OAKS: -- Colorado -- 23 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Just east of the 24 mountains, unfortunately. 25 MR. OAKS: But Colorado in there, too. Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 10 1 THE SPEAKER: Rainbow trout fishing area. 2 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: However, however, my 3 question was, Texas has the right to divide into five 4 states if it so chose, or if it was forced to divide, 5 Texas could choose to succeed. 6 Were there predetermined boundaries on 7 those five states -- 8 MR. OAKS: No. 9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: -- Texas -- 10 MR. OAKS: No, no. 11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That'll be fine. 12 THE SPEAKER: Okay. 13 REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: So technically we 14 might want to change this pledge to not an indivisible 15 but and possibly divisible into five. 16 THE SPEAKER: Or -- or we could just get 17 rid of the whole line about indivisible and say something 18 about -- 19 REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: Under God? 20 THE SPEAKER: -- fiercest pride or 21 something, you know. With a fierce native pride or -- no 22 gig 'em, Aggies, or the lone star stands for something. 23 I don't -- 24 Okay. Thank you very much. 25 MR. OAKS: Thank you. Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 11 1 THE SPEAKER: Any other questions? I mean 2 any other witnesses for, against or on House -- we've got 3 one -- one (inaudible) statement that you-all need to 4 testify from Jonathan Signs (phonetic), and we'll go 5 ahead that put that in the record. 6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Did anybody testify 7 for it? 8 THE SPEAKER: We had one that was for it 9 but didn't need to testify. Just wanted to be in the 10 record. 11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Nobody against it? 12 THE SPEAKER: Nobody against it. 13 Anybody for, against or on? There being 14 none, the Chair recognizes Representative Riddle. 15 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Thank you very 16 much. 17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: O'Day. 18 THE SPEAKER: Representative O'Day -- 19 REPRESENTATIVE O'DAY: Yes. 20 THE SPEAKER: -- I would like to thank you 21 very much for bringing this, and I'll be honored to 22 support it any way that I can. Thank you. 23 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Well, thank you. I 24 really appreciate that support. We have -- and let me 25 just share with you -- I think you are a co-author on Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 12 1 there; are you not? If not, I would like you -- I would 2 be honored to have your name on there as a co-author. 3 We have 65 co-authors, three joint authors. 4 And so I think we're finding a great deal of support for 5 it. 6 And as far as the -- Representative 7 Phillips, regarding being divisible, I see it is -- yes, 8 Texas is, in fact, divisible, and you and I visited about 9 that; but we choose to hang together. We choose. It's 10 like in a marriage. You can -- you can choose to divide, 11 but you also can choose to unite; and that is what Texas 12 is doing, I think. 13 And so your question is a good question, 14 but I think that we are indivisible by spirit. 15 REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: And, I'm sorry, 16 it didn't have anything to do with your bill, so -- and I 17 apologize as far as that -- that question. 18 THE SPEAKER: I think it's a good 19 amendment, though. Indivisible by spirit. 20 REPRESENTATIVE RIDDLE: Indivisible by 21 spirit may not be bad. 22 And with that, Mr. Chairman, I close, and I 23 thank each one of you, Members. Thank you. 24 THE SPEAKER: Thank you very much. 25 House Bill 1034 will be left as pending Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 13 1 business before the Committee. 2 The Chair lays out House Bill 2769 and 3 recognizes Representative Eiland to explain the bill. 4 * * * * * * * * 5 THE SPEAKER: Chair lays out House Bill 6 1034, by Representative Riddle. This is a bill relating 7 to the pledge of allegiance to the state flag and adding 8 the words God -- "under God." 9 There is not a committee substitute. I 10 think we decided not do the amendments that we -- we 11 discussed. 12 Is there objection to bringing this bill 13 up? Hearing none, Representative Homer moves that House 14 Bill 1034 pass. 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (inaudible) 16 Hilderbran? 17 REPRESENTATIVE HILDERBRAN: Aye. 18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Chairman Kuempel, 19 Representative Dukes, Representative Homer, 20 Representative Howard, Representative O'Day. 21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Under God, yes. 22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Representative 23 Phillips? 24 REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: Aye. 25 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Motion carried. Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 14 1 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Motion carries. 2 Chair lays out House Bill 1697, related to 3 the protection of property subject to certain 4 conservation easements. 5 I have a committee substitute that I need 6 to explain. Members, this is the bill that -- 7 (End of audio.) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 15 1 STATE OF TEXAS ) 2 COUNTY OF TARRANT ) 3 4 I, LEAH K. OSTEEN-DOW, Certified Shorthand Reporter, 5 duly qualified in and for the State of Texas, certify 6 that the foregoing transcript was transcribed by me and 7 that the transcript is a true record of the proceedings 8 on the audio file provided to me. 9 I further certify that I am neither counsel 10 for, nor related to, any party in this cause and am not 11 financially interested in its outcome. 12 13 GIVEN UNDER MY HAND OF OFFICE on this the 25th 14 day of October, 2007. 15 _____________________________ LEAH K. OSTEEN, CSR No. 3916 16 Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of Texas 17 Certification expires 12/31/08 18 Osteen Reporting Services Firm Registration No. 392 19 313 Northglen Drive Hurst, Texas 76054-3024 20 (817) 498-9990 (telephone) (817) 498-0410 (facsimile) 21 22 23 24 25 Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990