1 Transcript - Senate Education Committee - SB 83 1 2 3 4 5 6 ****************************************** 7 8 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 9 SENATE EDUCATION COMMITTEE 10 COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE TO SENATE BILL 83 11 MARCH 25, 2003 12 13 ****************************************** 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 THE FOLLOWING TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS, SENATE 21 EDUCATION COMMITTEE, COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE TO SENATE BILL 22 83, was transcribed by Leah K. Osteen, Certified 23 Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of Texas, from a 24 Texas Senate Media Services file indicating the date of 25 the proceedings to have taken place on 05/25/03. Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 2 Transcript - Senate Education Committee - SB 83 1 THE CHAIR: Chair lays out Senate Bill 83 2 and recognizes its author, Senator Wentworth, to explain 3 the bill. 4 And, Senator Wentworth, my understanding is 5 you have a committee substitute. 6 SENATOR WENTWORTH: I do indeed, Madam 7 Chairman. 8 THE CHAIR: Okay. Senator Averitt sends up 9 Committee Substitute to Senate Bill 83 at this time. Is 10 there any objection to hearing the committee substitute? 11 Hearing none. 12 Would you address, please, Senator 13 Wentworth, the committee substitute -- 14 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Yes, ma'am. 15 THE CHAIR: -- as it is different from the 16 original bill. 17 SENATOR WENTWORTH: I'll be pleased and 18 honored to do that. 19 Madam Chairman and Members, I have a 20 Committee Substitute for Senate Bill 83, which first of 21 all moved the minute-of-silence provision from Section 22 25.901 of the Education Code, exercise of constitutional 23 right to pray, to Section 25.082, school day, where the 24 permissive period of silence is -- would be currently -- 25 would be located. Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 3 Transcript - Senate Education Committee - SB 83 1 After listening to constituents and 2 testimony before this Committee and looking at other 3 minute-of-silence bills offered in both the Senate and 4 the House, I have changed Senate Bill 83, which is now 5 the committee substitute, to include the recitation of 6 the pledge of allegiance to the United States flag and 7 the pledge of allegiance to the Texas flag. 8 It contains an opt-out provision to 9 excuse a student from reciting a pledge of allegiance 10 upon written request from a student's parent or guardian. 11 Following the pledges, students would 12 remain standing for a minute of silence during which they 13 may reflect, pray, meditate or engage in any other silent 14 activity that is not likely to interfere with or distract 15 another student. 16 The teacher or other school employee in 17 charge of the students during this time must ensure that 18 each student remain standing, if physically able, and 19 silent and does not act in a manner that is likely to 20 interfere with or distract another student. 21 It's a pretty straightforward bill and one 22 that I -- I believe has addressed the major concerns that 23 people have raised. 24 THE CHAIR: Thank you. 25 Is there any objections to adopting the Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 4 Transcript - Senate Education Committee - SB 83 1 committee substitute? Hearing none. We will now be 2 discussion -- discussing the Committee Substitute to 3 Senate Bill 83. 4 I have one question. 5 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Yes, ma'am. 6 THE CHAIR: The word "pray," putting into 7 this bill, when you talked to us at one point in time, we 8 talked about the Virginia -- West Virginia or Virginia? 9 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Virginia. 10 THE CHAIR: Virginia. At that time, we 11 talked about we wanted to do something similar to what -- 12 Virginia because we knew the Supreme Court had upheld -- 13 or did not speak to the Virginia law -- 14 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Did not speak 15 (inaudible), right. 16 THE CHAIR: -- and therefore were silent on 17 it. And does their bill say -- have the word "pray" in 18 it at all? 19 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Yes, ma'am. 20 THE CHAIR: Okay. That's all I wanted to 21 know. Thank you. 22 I've had people say to me that when you -- 23 a moment of silence is one thing, but when you put the 24 word "pray" in that it would cause a problem for the 25 Supreme Court, and I (inaudible) that I would ask. Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 5 Transcript - Senate Education Committee - SB 83 1 That's all I needed to hear. 2 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Yes, ma'am. 3 THE CHAIR: Thank you. 4 Questions? Okay. I'm going to open public 5 testimony. 6 Susie Painter (phonetic), director of 7 Citizenship Education, Christian Life Commission and 8 Texas Baptist General Convention, for the bill. 9 SPEAKER: Good afternoon, Chairman Shapiro 10 and Senators. I'm Susie Painter with the Christian Life 11 Commission of the Texas Baptist Convention of Texas. We 12 speak to and with Baptists all over the state about 13 issues of public policy. 14 I'm coming today to speak for this bill 15 because we feel like this bill introduces a ritual of 16 reverence and respect. And reverence and respect are 17 wonderful qualities that are supported by both our 18 character education programs in the state and by the 19 general values of most of our community. 20 We're also speaking in favor of this bill 21 because it confirms the liberty of all students. We 22 affirm the position of this bill, this moment of silence, 23 because it does not attempt to entangle 24 government-fostered religion or anything of that nature. 25 It keeps these items separate and clean and allows for Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 6 Transcript - Senate Education Committee - SB 83 1 the constitutional right to pray of every child, but it 2 does not -- this moment of silence does not address that 3 part of the Education Code in any way. So it protects 4 the freedom of all students for them (unintelligible). 5 THE CHAIR: Thank you very much. 6 SPEAKER: Uh-huh. 7 THE CHAIR: Okay, I'm going to give this my 8 best shot. Shavondalin (phonetic) -- is that correct? -- 9 Givens (phonetic), legislative intern, ACLU. Was that 10 close? 11 SPEAKER: It was -- it was perfect. 12 THE CHAIR: Oh, good. Beautiful name. Oh, 13 sorry. Here to testify against the bill. 14 SPEAKER: Good afternoon, Madam Chairwoman 15 and Senators. My name is Shavondalin Givens, and I'm 16 here representing the American Civil Liberties Union of 17 Texas. And we are opposed to the bill with the new 18 committee substitutes. We basically have two main points 19 as to why we are against the bill. 20 In terms of the issue about moment of 21 silence, we are particularly concerned about the 22 discriminatory impact of certain students who would want 23 to participate in the moment of silence as a time to 24 pray, but because the bill currently requires students to 25 remain seated during the moment of silence -- is that Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 7 Transcript - Senate Education Committee - SB 83 1 right? 2 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Stand. 3 SPEAKER: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. 4 Because it was changed to require students to stand 5 during the moment of silence. If students' religion 6 requires them to kneel and pray during the moment of 7 silence, then they would not be able to pray during the 8 moment of silence. 9 And we're particularly concerned about that 10 because we want it to have an equal impact so that all 11 students will be able to take full advantage of the 12 moment of silence and have the opportunity to pray during 13 that moment if they so decide. 14 Our other issue with the bill as it has 15 been substituted is with the mandate for the pledge of 16 allegiance. We're particularly concerned about the fact 17 that the only way for students to opt out of the program 18 is for their parents to consent to the bill. 19 The Supreme Court has recognized an 20 individual right of conscience for everyone, including 21 students, to be able to decide if they wish to 22 participate in the pledge of allegiance. 23 So we would like to see that changed so 24 that students can make the personal decision if they 25 don't want to participate in the pledge of allegiance, Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 8 Transcript - Senate Education Committee - SB 83 1 that they would not be able to -- that they would not be 2 forced to do so and that they would not have to get their 3 parents' permission. 4 Thank you. 5 THE CHAIR: Thank you very much. 6 Appreciate your being here. 7 Dr. Fidelma O'Leery (phonetic), Council on 8 American Islamic Relations, here to testify on the bill. 9 Okay, let the record reflect. 10 Katherine Ruiz (phonetic), here to testify 11 on the bill. Okay. 12 Is there anyone else in the audience who 13 would like to testify? Oops. Now, you know better. 14 SPEAKER: Sorry to interrupt. I'd just 15 like to testify neutrally on the bill and -- 16 THE CHAIR: State who you are and who you 17 represent. 18 SPEAKER: Oh, I'm sorry. Kathy Douglas 19 (phonetic) with the Texas Association of School Boards. 20 And I just wanted to share with the 21 Committee that we did a survey of districts that do 22 currently have a minute -- a moment, excuse me, of 23 silence, and most of the districts have a 30- to 24 40-second moment of silence. 25 And so I would just ask that to accommodate Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 9 Transcript - Senate Education Committee - SB 83 1 current practice that the Committee leave it up to the 2 local district as to how long that moment of silence is. 3 THE CHAIR: I think you lose the effect of 4 a moment of silence when you say it's 20 seconds. I 5 would think maybe those school districts might want to 6 conform if this bill passes and go ahead and do a full 7 moment. I just think if you do 20 seconds or 30 seconds 8 in another school and 10 seconds -- I mean, I think it 9 needs some uniformity. But it's up to the sponsor -- the 10 author. 11 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Oh, I -- I said at the 12 last hearing and I repeat again, I think it should be 13 uniform statewide. 14 THE CHAIR: Okay. 15 SPEAKER: Thank you. 16 THE CHAIR: Thank you. And please make 17 sure you get your card. 18 Is there anyone else in the audience who 19 would like to testify for, against or on Committee 20 Substitute to Senate Bill 83? 21 Okay, we'll close public testimony, and 22 when we get a quorum we'll vote on your bill. 23 SENATOR WENTWORTH: May I help round one 24 up? 25 THE CHAIR: If you could, we'd be most Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 10 Transcript - Senate Education Committee - SB 83 1 appreciative. 2 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Thank you, Madam Chair. 3 THE CHAIR: Thank you. 4 (Proceedings relating to Senate Bill 83 5 adjourned.) 6 (Proceedings relating to Senate Bill 83 7 resumed.) 8 THE CHAIR: Chair lays out Senate Bill -- 9 Committee Substitute to Senate Bill 83 by Senator 10 Wentworth, and there is a floor amendment that Senator 11 West would like to send up. 12 SENATOR WEST: Committee amendment. 13 THE CHAIR: Committee amendment. You 14 changed floor amendment. 15 SENATOR WEST: Thank you. 16 THE CHAIR: There's a committee amendment. 17 Senator West will explain the amendment. 18 SENATOR WEST: Members, what you have, 19 currently the language of Committee Substitute to Senate 20 Bill 83 requires students are physical able to stand in 21 order to pray. This amendment would ensure that every 22 religious entities' followers kneel or sit rather than 23 stand when they pray would also be included. That's 24 pretty much what this does. 25 THE CHAIR: Any questions of the author of Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 11 Transcript - Senate Education Committee - SB 83 1 the amendment? 2 UNIDENTIFIABLE SPEAKER: Let me read -- 3 read it. 4 THE CHAIR: They need some time to read it. 5 UNIDENTIFIABLE SPEAKER: Madam Chairman -- 6 UNIDENTIFIABLE SPEAKER: Striking the 7 whole -- whole section D and replacing it with the new 8 language here? 9 SENATOR WEST: Basically, what it's saying 10 is that you don't have to stand. That's what it comes 11 down to. 12 UNIDENTIFIABLE SPEAKER: Madam Chairman? 13 THE CHAIR: Hang on just one second. They 14 want to read it just a minute. 15 SENATOR WENTWORTH: May I explain it to 16 them? 17 SENATOR WEST: I thought I did a pretty 18 good job. 19 SENATOR WENTWORTH: I think you did, too, 20 but I've read through it and ... 21 SENATOR WEST: Let's see if they have any 22 questions. 23 Do you have any questions? 24 UNIDENTIFIABLE SPEAKER: Looks good. 25 THE CHAIR: You okay? Senator Williams, Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 12 Transcript - Senate Education Committee - SB 83 1 are you okay? He's still reading. 2 SENATOR WILLIAMS: Slow. 3 THE CHAIR: That's okay. Take your time. 4 I've got remedial reading for you as well. 5 SENATOR WEST: Developmental. 6 UNIDENTIFIABLE SPEAKER: Cautious. 7 THE CHAIR: Cautious. 8 Is this about your bill? 9 Okay. Questions of the author of the 10 amendment? No? 11 Senator Wentworth. 12 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Senator West raised the 13 issue at the first hearing several weeks ago and then 14 again today in private conversation about the fact that 15 some Muslims prefer to -- 16 SENATOR WEST: I didn't say some Muslims. 17 I said some religions. Religions. 18 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Well, according to 19 the -- 20 SENATOR WEST: Well, I know. I know. 21 SENATOR WENTWORTH: -- explanation on the 22 bottom of the -- 23 SENATOR WEST: Well, they put Muslims down 24 there, but Muslims aren't the only persons. 25 SENATOR WENTWORTH: Okay. Well, we did Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 13 Transcript - Senate Education Committee - SB 83 1 have -- we waited a couple of hours this morning. Dr. 2 Fidelma O'Leery (phonetic), representing -- she's the 3 legislative liaison for the Muslim religion in Texas, and 4 she -- she would have testified had she been here that 5 she had no objection to the bill as we had it, although I 6 read this amendment and I don't have any objection to it 7 either. So I think it will be -- I think it will be 8 fine. 9 THE CHAIR: Questions? 10 Okay. Is there any objection to the 11 Committee Amendment No. 1? Hearing none. Committee 12 Amendment No. 1 is adopted. 13 Committee Amendment No. 1 will be rolled 14 into the committee substitute. Any objection to that? 15 None. So ordered. 16 SENATOR WEST: I move the bill. 17 THE CHAIR: Senator West moves that Senate 18 Bill 83 be reported back to the full Senate with the 19 recommendation that it do not pass but that the committee 20 substitute adopted in lieu thereof be passed and be 21 printed. 22 Clerk will call the roll. 23 THE CLERK: Shapiro? 24 SENATOR SHAPIRO: Aye. 25 THE CLERK: West? Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 14 Transcript - Senate Education Committee - SB 83 1 SENATOR WEST: Aye. 2 THE CLERK: Averitt? 3 SENATOR AVERITT: Aye. 4 THE CLERK: Janek, Ogden? 5 UNIDENTIFIABLE SPEAKER: Aye. 6 THE CLERK: Staples? 7 SENATOR STAPLES: Aye. 8 THE CLERK: Van de Putte? 9 SENATOR VAN DE PUTTE: Aye. 10 THE CLERK: Williams? 11 SENATOR WILLIAMS: Aye. 12 THE CLERK: Zaffirini? 13 (inaudible) 14 THE CHAIR: Being seven ayes and no nays, 15 Committee Substitute to Senate Bill 83 will be reported 16 back to the full Senate with a favorable recommendation. 17 (End of proceedings relating to Senate Bill 18 83.) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990 15 Transcript - Senate Education Committee - SB 83 1 STATE OF TEXAS ) 2 COUNTY OF TARRANT ) 3 I, LEAH K. OSTEEN, Certified Shorthand 4 Reporter, duly qualified in and for the State of Texas, 5 certify that the foregoing Transcript of Proceedings, 6 Senate Education Committee, Committee Substitute to 7 Senate Bill 83, was transcribed by me from a Texas Senate 8 Media Services file indicating the date of the 9 proceedings to have taken place on 05/06/03, and that the 10 Transcript of Proceedings, Senate Education Committee, 11 Committee Substitute to Senate Bill 83, is a true record 12 of the Texas Media Services file from which it was 13 transcribed. 14 15 GIVEN UNDER MY HAND OF OFFICE on this the 16 31st day of August, 2006. 17 ____________________________ LEAH K. OSTEEN, CSR No. 3916 18 Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of Texas 19 Certification expires 12/31/06 20 Osteen Reporting Services Firm Registration No. 392 21 313 Northglen Drive Hurst, Texas 76054-3024 22 (817) 498-9990 (telephone) (817) 498-0410 (facsimile) 23 24 25 Osteen Reporting Services (817) 498-9990